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Rules draft 0.8
(Read 25319 times)
Kristoffer Lindqvist
Staff  [Project Manager, Developer, Moderator, Swedish Translator]
 
Finland Finland Male 1178 posts
WWW
« on: June 19, 2007, 07:51:21 pm »

As you know, our rulebook is still considered a draft. With this thread, I warmly encourage each and everyone of you to air your thoughts on any aspect of it. Language bugs, omissions, objections, questions... everything is welcome!

The plan is to allow modification of the rules to go on throughout this year (2007), which hopefully gives us time to test it out in 2-3 more meets. At the beginning of 2008, the rules will be formalized and rule changes will no longer be taken so lightly (nothing worse than a rulebook that keeps changing all the time). So... this IS the time to collectively improve this rulebook to a point where we can be proud of it. I've taken it this far, now let's talk and make it OUR rules.  Grin
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Kristoffer Lindqvist
Staff  [Project Manager, Developer, Moderator, Swedish Translator]
 
Finland Finland Male 1178 posts
WWW
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2007, 10:59:06 pm »

I made a few small additions to the current rule draft. The version number is now 0.81. If anyone has any objections/additions/suggestions on these changes or other parts of the rules, let them be known in this thread. Additions are in bold and removed parts are struck out.

FROM: C. Overall Rankings and Meet Scoring

4. Ranking tables rank all results achieved since the first meet in 2007. No ranking should be removed unless there is a pressing reason to do so unless a result has been invalidating post-facto (for example, based on evidence of fraud). Each ranking table must contain only the best result ever achieved for each lifter as defined by the corresponding relative strength score.

Comments: This is just an addition to make it totally clear that each lifter can appear only once in each ranking table, and that it is always the relative strength score that counts not PRs in terms of absolute weight on the bar.

FROM: i. Eligibility to enter a meet

7. Every lifter attending a meet must approve of the video footage being used by the Virtualmeet.net web site Virtualmeet.net for the purpose of providing meet video and/or screenshot images. All submitted material will be used with good taste and in a positive manner showcasing our camaraderie and progress in the sport of powerlifting. Lifters may also independently do anything they wish with their own meet footage, but are encouraged to withhold publishing it elsewhere before the meet results are in.

Comments: Legally speaking, the old version could put us in trouble if video footage appeared anywhere other than on this very web site. If any lifter who took part in the first meet does not agree with this change, let me know and I'll take you out of the YouTube version of the meet video.

FROM: ii. Taking part in a meet

4. Obtaining the daily newspaper: Everyone taking part in the meet must take the day's newspaper to the gym. This newspaper must be held up or laid out for the camera close enough so that the date and/or main headlines can clearly be discerned in the video clip leading up to the first attempt on the first exerciselift. In the event that the newspaper is forgotten on the first attempt or the recording equipment fails, it is also acceptable to show it on the first possible subsequent attempt. If the meet is done extremely early in the morning or no paper is published on the meet day, yesterday's paper is also acceptable. Failure to produce the day's paper shall result in disqualification from the meet.

Comment: It would seem pretty harsh to be out of the meet if the camera fails on the first attempt on the first lift. There was one case in our first meet where one lifter was unaware of the necessity of having a news paper, but he was pardoned due to the very last minute publishing of the rules. Harsh as it may be, the newspaper is one of the few mechanisms we have for verifying the meet date and this rule change makes it very clear what will happen if it is not present. Also added a small provision for cases where there are no papers available due to a holiday or similar.

6. Submitting meet footage: All video footage together with other meet details such as attempts and length of the meet must be submitted to Virtualmeet.net within 24 hours of the completion of a meet. Exceptions may be granted for lifters without access to a broadband connection or who are otherwise not able to comply with this rule for a good reason provided this is applied for in advanced that permission is granted by the meet director in advance. If technical problems are encountered during the transfer of the video files, the meet director should be notified at once.

Comments: Just a matter of fine print. Just applying for permission for a longer upload time is obviously not enough, it must also be granted.

FROM: Equipment specifications

6. Any kind of safety device that in no way interfers with a successful lift is allowed, including power racks, safety chains and portable safety gadgets. The use of safety devices is highly recommended for those not blessed with competent spotters. The bar or lifter may not come in any kind of contact with the safety devices during the lift. The sole exception to this rule is when safety chains are attached above the bar, in case of which the bar may come in contact with the chains as long as the bar is deemed by the judges to be unsupported by the chains throughout the lift.

Comments: Using safety chains, for example attached from the top of the rack as loops to catch a failed lift in the bottom, will be very difficult if the bar is not allowed to touch the chains at all. This is not a problem as there is no way contact with the chains will aid the lift unless the bar is actually supported by the chains (this would usually mean deloading at the bottom); if anything, rubbing against the chains may add slight friction that makes the lift harder. Safety should always come first; not being able to use safety chains without serious risk of disqualification would not be good. Remember, not everyone will have spotters, rack pins etc. available.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2007, 11:11:27 pm by kris » Logged
Kristoffer Lindqvist
Staff  [Project Manager, Developer, Moderator, Swedish Translator]
 
Finland Finland Male 1178 posts
WWW
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2007, 01:46:05 am »

The rules have now been updated to version 0.82.

FROM: E. Lifting attire and equipment

1. The lifter must wear clothing that leaves the knees and elbows bare at all times during the lifts in the form of either a T-shirt and a pair of shorts OR a non-supportive singlet with or without a T-shirt. In addition, non-supportive underwear and appropriate shoes must be worn with or without socks. Women may additionally wear a commercial bra or sports bra.

Comments: Prohibiting singlets suddenly made a lot of sense after I read the Crossfit Total by Mark Rippetoe. As he puts it, "the [no-]singlet rule is designed to allay any tendency toward supportive gear". For our purposes, lifting in a singlet serves no particular purpose, not to mention that it is hard to spot the difference between a non-supporting singlet and a supporting one on video. A T-shirt and a pair of shorts also make it immediately obvious for anyone stumbling in that the lift was done RAW; in a sense, this outfit is the hallmark of RAW lifting. So, without further ado, the singlet is no longer allowed in Virtualmeet.net competitions. To date, nobody has worn a singlet in any case, so this rule change should not affect much.

Also edited out all mentions of singlets being allowed that I could find on the site, even remembered the gym poster (those who have posted this at gyms etc., could I humbly trouble you to either strike the singlet line out or print out a new one?).

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Kristoffer Lindqvist
Staff  [Project Manager, Developer, Moderator, Swedish Translator]
 
Finland Finland Male 1178 posts
WWW
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2007, 09:28:17 pm »

A few more small rule changes and corrected sentences; the rules are now at version 0.83. Those who took part in the September 2007 meet, did you bump into anything you think should be changed?

It should be noted that some sections of the rules, notably those touching on how to submit video and judging results, are becoming obsolete as some of these functions are being taken over by the meet automation software. However, it makes little sense to rewrite these sections before the software is fully operational.

FROM: C. Overall Rankings and Meet Scoring

4. Ranking tables rank all results achieved since the first meet in 2007. No ranking should be removed unless there is a pressing reason to do so unless a result has been, such as a result having been invalidated post-facto (for example, based on evidence of fraud). Each ranking table must contain only the best result ever achieved for each lifter as defined by the corresponding relative strength score.

Comments: Corrected a grammatically faulty sentence, no content change.

FROM: ii. Taking part in a meet

3. Weighing in: Every lifter enrolled in a meet must weigh-in at any time within 10 hours, but not later than 1 hour, of the meet to determine his competition bodyweight on a scale deemed accurate. The weigh-in may be performed either in the nude or with a light layer of clothing; the weight of any clothing worn may not be deducted from the bodyweight. The result should be recorded and submitted along with the meet footage after the meet. Three weigh-ins are allowed during the 10 hour time period. There is no need to videotape or photograph the weigh-in which is presumed to be carried out honestly.

Comments: The common praxis in powerlifting of closing the weigh-in about an hour or so from the meet (for same day weigh-ins) presumably stems from purely practical issues related to getting the meet up and running on schedule. In our case, this clause just makes life more difficult for those who want to weigh-in at the gym when they come in to start the meet. Therefore, I suggest dropping the one hour rule completely.

FROM: E. Lifting attire and equipment

1.Ammonia capsules and smelling salts are allowed, but may not be used after the lifter touches the bar to begin a lift.

Comments: Clarification added to prevent misunderstandings, even if unlikely.

FROM: i. Squat

2. After removing bar from rack the lifter shall move backward or forward to establish the starting position where the lifter is motionless with knees locked and the bar properly positioned no matter what lifting equipment is used (including monolifts). The lifter may not receive any kind of assistance when setting up. After the starting position has been established, no contact with the rack is permitted until the bar is replaced in the racks.

Comments: Not allowing contact with the rack during the lift is designed as a broad protection against using it to aid a lift, such as bracing the feet against the rack to achieve support. Thanks to Ryan Stinn for bringing this possibility to my attention. Specifically, in the September 2007 meet one lifter seems to have his feet in contact with the rack; in this case it did not seem to happen in a way that aided his squat, but it did bring up the possibility of pushing out sideways towards the rack to receive assistance in "spreading the floor" as the Westside guys like to put it.

FROM: 6. Causes for disqualification of a squat

h) Contact with the bar, plates or lifter by other people, the rack, or a possible safety device (such as a pin in the power rack) between the visible pauses at the beginning and end of the squat. Minor touching not deemed to aid the lifter is allowed at the discretion of the judges.

Comments: Added the rack to support the rule change against touching the rack during the lift above.

FROM: 5. Causes for disqualification of a deadlift

g) Bracing the feet against any object, such as the base of a rack.

Comments: As for the squat above, bracing the feet against the sides of a rack could potentially aid a sumo deadlift.

FROM: ii. The bench press

1.The lifter must lie on his back so that the shoulders (upper back area) and buttocks are in contact with the bench surface at all times during the lift.

Comments: Fixed a sentence, no content change.
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Kristoffer Lindqvist
Staff  [Project Manager, Developer, Moderator, Swedish Translator]
 
Finland Finland Male 1178 posts
WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2007, 12:09:27 am »

The rules are now at version 0.84 after I folded in a fairly impressive list of minor problems detected by Måns during his translation effort. THANKS!

Since there are no content changes, I will not list the changes made (which are on the order of "add space here", "missing an e in adhere there"...).
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Kristoffer Lindqvist
Staff  [Project Manager, Developer, Moderator, Swedish Translator]
 
Finland Finland Male 1178 posts
WWW
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2008, 12:12:01 am »

Meet-in-meets?

I was asked the interesting question of whether it would be acceptable to participate in a Virtualmeet by sending in meet footage from a traditional meet done on the same weekend. As it is now, there is really nothing in the rules prohibiting this provided the submission meets our criteria in terms of clothing, technical rules etc. But it does raise the issue of whether we should support or explicitly forbid these kinds of "meets-in-meets". A statement for or against should be in the rules to make our policy on this issue crystal clear.

Personally, I am strongly leaning towards NOT allowing meets-in-meets for reasons related to having to meet two rule sets at the same time, the possibly disruptive effects of double judging and the risk that some meet organizers may feel that a lifter doing this is "infilitrating" their meets. Virtualmeet.net is intended to be an unofficial and alternative form of competition that happily co-exists alongside the traditional meets. To me, meets-in-meets sound like a potential source of friction since they cross into the traditional meet sphere. But I really want to raise this question for discussion to bring out points I may be missing. This whole issue is very interesting and merits further discussion before a decision for or against is made.

If anyone has any comments regarding meets-in-meets, please respond by January 16th, 2008 so that we have time to fold the verdict into the rules in time for the next meet sign-up on January 21st. If we allow meets-in-meets, then we should also reintroduce singlets as valid lifting attire since most federations do not recognize T-shirts and shorts as valid lifting attire. Showing the newspaper would also have to be made optional for meets-in-meets since it would be disruptive and is not really necessary as the date and attempts should be verifiable through the federation under which the meet takes place.

Any thoughts?  Cheesy
« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 12:21:35 am by kris » Logged
Christian Burger
Staff  [Moderator, German Translator]
 
Austria Austria Male 598 posts
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2008, 09:54:24 am »

Another point is usage of equipment in meet in meets. In my case I want to compete in an IPF sponsored event and I would want to use at least some of the equipment which is OKed by the federation. This could cause a conflict of interest. So it looks to me it is best to keep official meets and virtualmeet.net meets seperated.
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Kristoffer Lindqvist
Staff  [Project Manager, Developer, Moderator, Swedish Translator]
 
Finland Finland Male 1178 posts
WWW
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2008, 10:55:03 pm »

The rules have been updated to version 0.85.

FROM: D. Participation

8. Submitting attempts taken as part of a meet not organized by Virtualmeet.net is not allowed.

Comments: Added the aforementioned rule proposal against allowing lifters to submit footage from another meet to the rules. This formulation leaves the back door open for the possibility of us organizing some kind of get-together meet with local judging that would tie into a regular virtualmeet online. Thanks to Christian for the feedback!
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Christian Burger
Staff  [Moderator, German Translator]
 
Austria Austria Male 598 posts
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2008, 11:04:02 pm »

The rules have been updated to version 0.85.

FROM: D. Participation

8. Submitting attempts taken as part of a meet not organized by Virtualmeet.net is not allowed.


What if we leave another backdoor open in that we write:

"8. Submitting attempts taken as part of a meet not organized OR SANCTIONED by Virtualmeet.net is not allowed"
Just food for thought as this just came to mind spontaniously. I must have read in some other context somewhere.
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Kristoffer Lindqvist
Staff  [Project Manager, Developer, Moderator, Swedish Translator]
 
Finland Finland Male 1178 posts
WWW
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2008, 09:29:54 pm »

Excellent idea! I will fold that in shortly and upgrade the rules to 0.86.

EDIT: The rules have been updated.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2008, 11:24:05 pm by kris » Logged
Kristoffer Lindqvist
Staff  [Project Manager, Developer, Moderator, Swedish Translator]
 
Finland Finland Male 1178 posts
WWW
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2008, 12:50:56 am »

The rules have been updated to version 0.87. This includes the first version of our weightlifting rules. There is a separate thread dedicated to these changes.

This rule update also included these generic changes:

FROM: D. Participation

5. Lifters must not have used any form of illegal narcotic, anabolic steroids or other performance enhancing hormones or drugs for the past 8 years, even if the substances are/were legal in the country of residence. Evidence that a lifter has been suspended from any sports organization due to drug abuse during the past 8 years is automatically grounds for disqualification from past and present meets. Virtualmeet.net reserves the right to scan participants against available lists of banned athletes. Every lifter who signs up for the meet must state with his honor at stake that he meets these criteria.  Submitting attempts taken as part of a meet not organized by Virtualmeet.net is not allowed.

Comments: Added a provision for automatically checking all participants against publicly available lists of banned athletes, such as IPF's list of suspended lifters.

FROM: iv. Suspicion of fraud

2.   Virtualmeet.net may ask the lifter under suspicion for further information regarding his participation, including asking for a written statement or close-up photography of the lifting equipment used. In cases where there are good grounds for suspecting that a person is competing under false identity, Virtualmeet.net may also ask the lifter to prove his identity in any way he sees fit. Lifting under false identity is grounds for being banned from the site.

Comment: another safe-guard for the future.

FROM: A.Overall Rankings and Meet Scoring

5. In addition to the all-time ranking tables, tables may also be kept for shorter time segments such as yearly or by subgroups such as weight classes and/or age.

Comment: as our meets continue to grow, we may also want to allow different categorized views of the meet results and rankings, including by the standard weight classes. However, there are no plans for replacing the relative strength based scoring by weight classes and/or age classes; these would just be different views. Virtualmeet.net is still about rubbing shoulders with each others on a unified platform. Smiley

As usual: comments, questions, ideas on these changes go below.
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Matt Reed
Judge
 
United States United States Male 251 posts
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2008, 04:22:56 pm »

Hey Kris,

Have you guys thought anymore on the issue of allowing singlets back in?

My thought on this was that it may make it easier for judging depth on the squat?

I had read a comment somewhere, where someone stated that the depth on some of the video clips was hard to tell. This was also due to bad lighting and angle, but I thought that if singlets were aloud back in the snuggness around the hip area may provide a better view of the depth regardless of lighting or angle. 

Maybe?
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Kristoffer Lindqvist
Staff  [Project Manager, Developer, Moderator, Swedish Translator]
 
Finland Finland Male 1178 posts
WWW
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2008, 07:43:46 pm »

Hey Matt,

No, we haven't really made any final decision on that yet, but we have briefly discussed the issue in regard to the weightlifting rules. The way I see it, the issue has the following dimensions:

1) We should strive to have the same clothing rules for both weightlifting and powerlifting to keep the rules simple and the risk for clothing mistakes to a minimum. So if we allow singlets for one, my opinion is that we should allow them for both.

2) The main reasoning behind not allowing singlets for powerlifting, as mentioned above, is that it is hard to tell a single-ply supportive singlet from a non-supportive singlet. The point is not so much that anyone here would actually try this, but rather to make a clear statement to the outside world that we really go about it RAW. To me, a T-shirt and shorts is an outfit anyone can relate to no matter in which context our videos may pop up. On the other hand, as Chip Conrad pointed out on the weightlifting rules thread, there would be no point in using a supportive singlet in the Olympic lifts as they would be more of a hindrance than an aid.

3) The number of lifters who would use singlets would probably be in the minority so any benefit would only affect a small number of lifters.

4) In real-world RAW meets, singlets are usually required. In this regard, it could be a good thing to also allow singlets here so people can lift in the same gear for both.

5) The depth reading problem in that particular case had more to do with bad conditions than clothing, but it is still true that a singlet does make it easier to read depth because there are no hanging t-shirts etc. The question is really whether we have a problem with reading depth now provided the angle and lighting are in order. I would argue that with bad light and/or a bad angle it doesn't really help much if a singlet is used. But all things being equal, a singlet does help here.

6) There are of course other options of achieving snugness in the hip area as well. The current rule draft mentions that "the T-shirt must fit the lifter without being baggy or tight. If the T-shirt is long enough to reach the buttocks, it should be tucked into the shorts on the squat as to not obstruct the assessment of depth". It could be taken further to actually require the shirt to be tucked in if at all possible and/or to demand that there is color contrast between the shorts and the shirt. But do we want to go this far? It is likely that many lifters will forget this and we would then have a new set of "forgot it and got red lighted" lifts. A singlet is simpler in this regard, but then again, it would only affect a minority of lifters.

7) The judging benefits of a singlet only affects one lift, i.e. the squat. Sneaking in a supportive singlet boosts all of the powerlifts (but of course not to an equal degree).

So there are clear pros and cons. Personally, I like the idea of maintaining a single dress code for the reasons mentioned in point 2 and because the benefits singlets bring would only affect the small minority of lifters who would wear one (point 3). But I also think that being able to use the same gear as in real RAW meets may be a strong point for singlets (point 4); but then again, many RAW meets also allow wraps which we don't so there may be a discrepancy anyway. So I could go both ways, but currently I am more for not allowing them. I would really welcome a bit of discussion on this to see how the rest of you feel. If there is a strong demand for allowing singlets then that's the way we should go.

This is an important decision to make and we should get it settled in the near future so that we can lock the rules on this. Thanks for turning our attention to it Matt.  Smiley
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Matt Reed
Judge
 
United States United States Male 251 posts
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2008, 08:20:37 pm »

Great points as always Kris Smiley

Indeed, more input on this issue would be nice.
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Kristoffer Lindqvist
Staff  [Project Manager, Developer, Moderator, Swedish Translator]
 
Finland Finland Male 1178 posts
WWW
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2009, 09:39:42 pm »

Some time ago, Vadim submitted an updated Russian translation for the weightlifterized rules. At the same time, he pointed out a mistake in the faults for the clean and jerk. This rule update fixes that and also replaces the temporary weightlifterized logo with the final one on the cover. The rules are now at version 0.88.

The Russian copy will be published shortly.

FROM: G. Technical rules of the recognized lifts / The Clean and Jerk

5. a) Stopping the bar movement at at time between the initiation of movement and the completion of the lift any time between the intitiation of movement and the rack position.

Comments: Obviously, and as mentioned earlier in the rules, pausing and adjusting the bar is fully allowed after the rack position has been reached. Also fixed interesting grammar.
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